Should we change the "spanish normal typing test"-wordlist

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christianstrang
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Should we change the "spanish normal typing test"-wordlist

Post by christianstrang » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:02 pm

Hello fellow typists :)

Slowmotion and VinceMiller created a new wordlist for the 10FastFingers normal typing test. As I'm not typing in spanish, I want to ask you guys what you think, for this I included the current wordlist and the improved one at the bottom. The biggest issue I have with changing the wordlist is, that it makes results incomparable, though I have to say I always favor things that help users improve their typing speed.

Here is the current word list:

a acuerdo ahora ahí al algo alguien amigo antes aquí así años bien buena bueno casa claro como con cosa cosas crees creo cuando cómo de decir del desde después dice dije dijo dinero dios donde dos día días dónde el él ella ellos en entonces era eres es esa ese eso espera esta estaba estado estamos estar estas este esto estoy está están estás favor fue fuera gente gracias gran gusta ha hablar hace hacer haciendo han has hasta hay he hecho hijo hola hombre ir la las le les lo los lugar mañana me mejor mi mierda mira mis mismo momento mucho mundo muy más mí mío nada nadie necesito ni no noche nombre nos nosotros nuestro nuevo nunca o oh otra otro padre papá para parece pasa pero poco podemos podría por porque puede puedes puedo que quiere quieres quiero quién qué sabe sabes se sea seguro ser será señor si siempre siento sin sobre solo son soy sr su sus sé sí sólo tal también tan te tenemos tener tengo ti tiempo tiene tienes tipo todo todos trabajo tu tus tú un una uno usted va vamos vas ver verdad vez vida voy y ya yo


And this is would be the new wordlist:

a acuerdo agua ahora algo alguien alguna alto amigos amor ante años apenas así atención aunque ayer bien buen bueno calle capital centro ciento cinco ciudad claro como con contra cosa creo cualquiera cuando cuanto cuatro cuenta da del de dentro después dice diez dinero don dos durante él ella encima entre era eso espera esto falta favor fin final forma fuera general gente gobierno gracias gran había hacen hacia haciendo has hay he hecho hemos historia hizo hombre hora hospital igual imagen importante incluso información ir jefe joven la lado las les libro llega llegar los luego lugar luis luz manera manos mañana más mayor mayoría media menor menos mente mi mira misma mismo momento nada nadie ninguna nivel noche nos nosotros nuestro nueva nunca o ojos otra padre país palabras para partido pero personas poco podía podemos poner por porque posible primera primero problema pues puesto que qué queda quien quieren quiero real relación sabe seis semana sentido ser sí sido siempre siglo sin sino situación social son somos soy su tal también tanto te tema tengo tiempo tiene tierra tipo toda todavía todo trabajo través tu tú tuvo última un una uso vas vamos vida y zona


Please let me know what you think and how you vote: keep the old list or use the new list.

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Linsk
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Re: Should we change the "spanish normal typing test"-wordli

Post by Linsk » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:21 pm

Hi,

I'm not Spanish but I find the current list pretty good. Besides, I was glad it was changed when the advanced mode appeared. I think it was a good thing because the previous list was much more difficult and was almost an advanced mode with its nearly 600 different words.

If we compare the two lists presented here, we see immediately that the new proposal will be a bit more difficult because the words are slightly longer (5.885 keystrokes per word on average, almost 6, against 5.155 for the current list). The difference is certainly not huge, however I think the ideal is closer to 5 for a standard difficulty mode. On the other hand, I also see that there are fewer special characters (such as á, é, í, ñ, ó and ú) in the new list. There are 21 against 28 in the current list, which therefore would facilitate a little bit. But again, the difference is small.

It's very nice to have now a normal test with a list of 200 "easy" words, suitable for all levels, and besides that, an advanced test with 1000 words a little more "difficult" for all those who want to go further. I don't know if these words are the most common in Spanish, as desired by Chris, but anyway what makes the difference in difficulty is mainly the number of words, their length and the number of special characters.

In summary, the current list is good and the new one is roughly equal so I see no particular reason to change. But before I give my vote, I would be curious to know exactly why Slow and Vince want to change this list? ^^

In the meantime, there are other lists which I think should really be changed before:
- Icelandic: more than 600 words so almost an advanced mode;
- Swedish: roughly 500 words and a majority are long, making it one of the most difficult tests in normal mode;
- Croatian, Finnish, Slovak, Serbian, Norwegian, Latvian and Malaysian: they all have less than 100 different words and are therefore particularly "easier" than others speedtests, especially the Serbian and Norwegian, which have in addition very short words.

LARSSS
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Re: Should we change the "spanish normal typing test"-wordli

Post by LARSSS » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:28 pm

There are also some remarkable Dutch words in the list, like frank, it can either be a name "so it should be Frank". Else it could be the old French valuta (franc).

Also words like miljoen (million) and miljard (billion)
Why not "honderd" (one hundred) or "duizend" (thousand)?

But yeah I'm quite offtopic now. I'd like to see their opinion as well, maybe it's comparable to mine and does the test contain some remarkable words. But if someone has knowledge about spanish typing, then it should be Vince. :)

ZappX
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Re: Should we change the "spanish normal typing test"-wordli

Post by ZappX » Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:07 am

I thought we were done with this. Do not change the normal modes, but rather add an "advanced" mode were it is missing. In addtition there will be a practice mode, so what is the problem? We all know typing is all about automation, so why ruin hours upon hours of practice for a change in word banks that are not really necessary anyway? One thing is for sure; changes in the word banks have, and is going to, aggravate a lot of members, including myself. There will always be someone complaining or suggesting to improve the word banks no matter how they are formed. As long as there are no incorrect words, I strongly suggest keeping them the way they are.

SlowMotion
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Re: Should we change the "spanish normal typing test"-wordli

Post by SlowMotion » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:32 pm

¡Hola!

Primero que todo me gustaría dar las gracias a Christian por tener en cuenta nuestra proposición, tanto de Vince como mía, y ponerla en conocimiento de la comunidad de 10fastfingers.

Como supongo imaginaréis, el motivo de la creación de esta nueva lista viene para intentar suplir/mejorar todos aquellos “defectos” de la anterior. No es la primera vez que planteo esto, de hecho la lista previa a la última actualización de palabras en español estaba hecha por mí. Puedo estar equivocado pero hago/hacemos esto únicamente con la intención de aportar y enriquecer en la medida de lo posible. Yo particularmente considero que la actual base de datos en español en el modo “normal” es buena, pero definitivamente se puede mejorar (hazme caso, soy Español =P). Entiendo que el propósito es la sencillez, rapidez, el uso de palabras comunes…y eso es lo que hemos buscado.

Es ahora que procedo a mi “análisis” al igual que hizo Linsk. Lo más sencillo de comprobar es el promedio de letras por palabra. La lista actual tiene una media, redondeando, de 4,16 y la que se propone de 4,89 (5,16 y 5,89 si tenemos en cuenta los espacios). Es más, si somos escrupulosos y consideramos el uso de dos pulsaciones para los símbolos “á, é, í, ó, ú” la diferencia quedaría en 5,28 y 5,98. A priori podría pensarse que eso hace más difícil el test, pero esta estadística no es algo absoluto y depende de otros factores. No es lo mismo escribir “muy” que “quiero”, la segunda es más rápida a pesar de tener el doble de caracteres, eso por poner un ejemplo. Siendo la diferencia únicamente 0,7 caracteres, considero que la práctica es el método mejor y más real para la comprobación de este apartado, teniendo en cuenta además que las palabras añadidas que “aumentan sensiblemente” la media de la base de datos han sido con la premisa que antes comentaba de la sencillez y rapidez a la hora de mecanografiarlas.

El uso de símbolos, estos sí objetivamente “ralentizadores” como lo son “á, é, í, ó, ú” se ha disminuido, pasando de ser 25 a 18. La “ñ” no creo que se deba tener en absoluto en cuenta, ya que es un test en español y para los nativos éste no es un caracter especial ni tiene dificultad alguna, con lo cual no influye apenas para los mecanógrafos extranjeros :D.

Algo más que tuvimos en cuenta fue el intentar compensar el uso de ambas manos a la hora de hacer el test, en la lista actual la mano izquierda se utiliza mucho más y en esta nueva hemos procurado que estuviesen a un nivel similar de esfuerzo.

Por otra parte, actualmente hay una enorme (en mi opinión excesiva) cantidad de pronombres personales (yo, tú, él, me, te, se, sí, le, lo las…) y demostrativos (ese, esa eso, esos, éstos, éstas...) que con una bd de apenas 200 palabras hacen bastante repetitivo el texto y difícil de seguir con comodidad en cuanto se juntan varias de estas palabras seguidas. Es frecuente encontrarte con una racha “eso esta ese esa…”. Esto último sinceramente es un sufrimiento y es bastante habitual. Es por ello que las hemos suprimido en buena medida y sustituido por otras. En este mismo sentido actuamos de la misma forma con grupos de palabras muy similares como “tiene/tienes”, “está/están/estás” o “un/una/uno” y las hemos dejado en una menor cantidad.

En resumen podría decir que hemos intentado hacer el test más dinámico, variado, rápido y menos reiterativo. Hay 91 palabras que son iguales y las que se han suprimido han sido para evitar, principalmente, la repetitividad de muchas de ellas, que hacen monótono y pesado el test y cortan el ritmo.

En cuanto a lo que dice ZappX, hay una parte en la que estoy de acuerdo y otra en la que no. Es más fácil conseguir una lista de palabras medio decente en el modo “normal” ya que son muchas menos, pero no por eso se han de dejar de lado posibles mejoras, siempre que vayan con el espíritu y ánimo para lo que fue concebida la web. Es obvio que el test avanzado necesita muchas más mejoras y más urgentes, sobre todo en los idiomas menos conocidos, trabajo para el cual ya nos ofrecimos igualmente voluntarios Vince y yo si se veía bien en ese mismo correo enviado a Christian. Esto no pretende ser un cambio radical y esta lista en particular dudo mucho que haga que la gente deje de participar, al contrario. Creo que es aún más lógica y atractiva. Al menos esa fue nuestra intención y si existe la posibilidad tenerla en algún tipo de “modo de prueba”, mejor.

Al contrario de lo que comenta ZappX, yo si veo necesarios hacer retoques a la actual lista de palabras en español, el resto no lo sé porque mi idioma es el español y no puedo tener opinión objetiva del ellos. Sobre todo, este hilo habla de un caso concreto, el test “modo normal” en español, y creo que aunque son bienvenidas todas las opiniones, incluso ramificaciones del tema, el caso atañe principalmente a los practicantes del test en español y para la implementación o no de esta nueva lista no debe tratarse como una generalización, insisto en que es un caso concreto.

Creemos que no tienen por qué mantenerse inamovibles hasta el infinito las listas de palabras. El cambio no lo hace menos atractivo si se hace con conocimiento del idioma, acentuando sus puntos fuertes y minimizando los débiles.

Y por último, pero no por ello menos importante, nos gustaría pedirle a Christian que cambiase el idioma del topic a Español ya que creemos que el debate debería centrarse mayormente en la gente que más visita este test.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Hello!

First of all I'd like to thank Christian for considering our proposal and helping draw the attention of the community of 10fastfingers to this matter.

The main reason for the set up of this new list is to try to improve and erase all those flaws from the current one. It's not the first time I've suggested this, in fact, the last list of words before the current one, was done for me. I may be wrong or not but I do (we) this only with the intention to improve and enrich to the maximum possible extent. I particularly consider that the actual Spanish data base in "normal" mode is good, but it can definitely get much better (let me tell ya, I'm spanish =P). I understand that the purpose is simplicity, speed and the use of common words ... and THAT is what we tried to do.

I will therefore proceed directly to the analisis the same way Linsk did. The easiest thing to analyse is the average of letters per word. The current list has an average of 4,16 and the one we are proposing is around 4.9 (5,16 and 5,89 if we take into account the spaces). When we talk about words, these do not contain spaces, therefore I think it's better to argue this from the first point (4,16 and 4,89) and in that sense if the approach to be followed is to get as close as possible to 5 characters / word, we would be acomplishing it by far. Besides, if we are scrupulous and consider the use of 2 keystrokes for symbols like "á, é, í, ó, ú" the difference would remain in 5,28 vs 5,98. A priori you can think that could make harder the test, but this statistic isn't absolute but relative and depends on other factors. It's not the same to type 'muy' than 'quiero', the second one is much quicker even though doubles the first one in characters. Being the difference only of 0,7 characters. I believe that practising is the best method and the most real to monitor this point. In addition, bear in mind that the words added which "slightly increase" the average are, in spite of this, simpler and quicker to type.

The use of symbols which slow typists down (á, é, í, ó, ú) has been handicapped, going from 25 to 18. I don't think the "ñ" is something we have to take into account at all since it is a spanish test and for natives this isn't a special character and has no difficulty whatsoever having a very little impact on foreign typists :D.

Another valuable and important point we took into account was to compensate the use of both hands when taking the test. The left hand is used a lot more than the right hand and in this new list we have sought thereby to ensure both hands are at a similar level of effort.

On the other hand, at the moment there's an enormous (for me it's excessive) amount of personal pronouns (yo, tú, él, me, te, sé, sí, le, lo, las...) and demostratives (ese, esa, eso, esos éstos, éstas...) that with a data base of barely 200 words make quite repetitive the text and difficult to comfortably follow when a bunch of them get together. You often can find rows of "eso esta ese esta está ese...". This last thing is a real pain in the ass and it is by no means UNusual. That's why we've largely removed this and replaced for others. In this context we've tried to do the same for words such as "tiene/tienes", "está/están"estás" or "un/una/uno and we've lessen them.

In short, I could say we've attempted to make a more dynamic test, varied and less repetitive. There are 91 words which remain the same and those words removed were mainly to avoid repetition which make the test annoyingly stressful and reiterative.

As for what Zappx said, there's a part which I agree and share and other which I reject. It's easier to get a half-decent word list in the "normal" mode since there are far fewer words, but not for that we must put aside any posible upgrades as long as they fulfill all the requirements and spirit for what the web was conceived. It is obvious that the advanced test needs more and urgent upgrades especially in languages not as well known, work for which Vince and I already applied voluntarily. This does not intend to make a drastic u-turn and I really doubt this particular list will stop people from participating. On the contrary, I believe this one is even more logical and attractive.

Contrary to what zappx said, I do think changes are needed in the current list of Spanish words. I don't know what's needed in the rest of languages cause my native language is Spanish and I cannot give any objective view on them. Other thought and views are welcomed too, however this case concerns first and foremost the spanish typists and whether the list is upgraded or not must NOT be treated as whole.

We think lists may not necessarily remain irremovable and last forever. The switch doesn't make it less attractive if it's done with the due knowledge of the language, developing the strenghts and reducing to a minimum the weaknesses.

Last but not least, We'd like to ask Christian to change the language of the topic into Spanish since we think the debate should focus mainly on the people who frequently visit this test.

Translated into English by VinceMiller

qbZ
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Re: Should we change the "spanish normal typing test"-wordli

Post by qbZ » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:16 pm

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Last edited by qbZ on Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

ZappX
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Re: Should we change the "spanish normal typing test"-wordli

Post by ZappX » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:22 am

I'm not specifically referring to the Spanish test, but I can see where this is going. Here are some general problems with changing the word banks:

Incomparable results: Forget about a high score list unless the old scores are rendered invalid in favour of the new word banks. Old personal high scores will also go out the window and obviously should not be referred to. The graph will look like a mess, and the work done improving on a specific word bank is gone when you have to start practicing from scratch all over again.

Personally I haven't taken a single Dutch test since the change, one of my favourites at the time. And why would I start practicing on a word bank when it could get drastically altered at any time? What is needed is some consistency, and there are specifically two areas that I would not change; the scoring calculation and the "normal" word banks.

VinceMiller
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Re: Should we change the "spanish normal typing test"-wordli

Post by VinceMiller » Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:13 pm

Zappx, Let me get this straight, you think having the same word list until the end of the days is what a typing site is all about?? then I don't think you are quite aware of what a site like this is for. They changed practically the list of all normal modes and it was very welcomed by the community since typing is NOT solely based in typing the same words over and over, but also having some variety from time to time so one can improve and get better at other combination of words.

Saying you have to start all over from scratch sounds rather extreme to me since what we are proposing here is an improved version of the current list (We will be keeping 91 words from the original).

Anyway, shouldn't you open a new topic for this? I really believe this has little to do with what we are discussing in here.

Why don't you ask Christian how many people stopped from taking the tests since the changes in wb were made? ;)

Makes no sense whatsoever to claim you won't be taking any test if word banks are modified.

LARSSS
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Re: Should we change the "spanish normal typing test"-wordli

Post by LARSSS » Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:10 pm

If word banks don't get changed so now and then, the site kind of loses the "typing skills" which are required but it gets more like.. how should I say it.. You just get so familiar with a word that you can easily type it by remembering. So you type a certain word fast just because you have typed it so often and you got so familiar with it, that it has not much to do with typing anymore.

I can understand the opinion of Slow.. The part with the demostratives convinced me. I have got spanish class as well and demostratives look the same in spanish, the test also contains a lot of different forms of a verb.
If we take the verb "tener" you have yo tengo (I have), tú tienes (you have), tiene, tenemos, tenéis and tienen. As you see these words are ALL different.
This is not the case in english. I am walking, you are walking, they are walking, we are walking, and so on.

So I can understand this is hard to read, and is quite annoying.

I agree to change the wb because:
-The site shouldn't lose the actual "typing skills"
-Similar words in Spanish.
-If the wb changes, other "typing icons" of a country may also want to update their list, so other languages won't be too repetitive as well so the site maintains the typing skills

ZappX
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Re: Should we change the "spanish normal typing test"-wordli

Post by ZappX » Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:24 pm

VinceMiller

Your post deals with only one of my arguments for keeping consistent word banks. I'm replying with quotes:

Zappx, Let me get this straight, you think having the same word list until the end of the days is what a typing site is all about?? then I don't think you are quite aware of what a site like this is for.


I did not write this. It is merely your own subjective reality of what you think is my opinion, and a manipulative way of enforcing your own opinion as the correct one.

They changed practically the list of all normal modes and it was very welcomed by the community since typing is NOT solely based in typing the same words over and over, but also having some variety from time to time so one can improve and get better at other combination of words.


"Very welcomed by the community" seems to me like a very subjective overstatement. Many word banks have stayed the same for as long as I've been using the site. Only recently some were changed. All those I'm practicing now are identical, or very close to what they have been from the start. Typing is not based only on repeating words, but it is extremely important for typing very fast. And that is what I am going for; to see how fast I can possibly type. In that case the same word banks are needed for practice over a long period of time.

Saying you have to start all over from scratch sounds rather extreme to me since what we are proposing here is an improved version of the current list (We will be keeping 91 words from the original).


Again, I am not specifically referring to the Spanish word bank. But yes, you pretty much have to start from scratch if you do not have previous experience typing the new words. It might be from a somewhat higher starting point than before, and it probably takes less time to improve, but in general it takes a lot of time and effort repeating the same words to get to a very high speed. The amount is determined by talent, practice and experience.

Why don't you ask Christian how many people stopped from taking the tests since the changes in wb were made? ;)


I'm not going to answer this one, another very questionable and manipulative way of discussing.

Makes no sense whatsoever to claim you won't be taking any test if word banks are modified.


There is little reason for me to invest a lot of time in many different languages if there is no consistency with at least some of the word banks. As mentioned, currently there are room for two, and a practice mode is coming up, so why not let one word bank stay the same?

PS: You are all of course welcome to discuss the Spanish word banks, in Spanish or English, in any topic you want. I am stating my personal opinion on this general matter.

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